http://gwb-one-and-only.tribe.net/thread/5e5780c9-fdc2-4bcc-844d-c2c37d7ca3ea?format=rss Tribe.net. Local Connections http://GWB-ONE-AND-ONLY.tribe.net/thread/5e5780c9-fdc2-4bcc-844d-c2c37d7ca3ea#872e7bc1-9e74-444c-b88e-23c5199a1f02 Um, I think that you sort of missed the point here - I was proposing this to stimulate thoughts and discussion about whether and how we value civilian deaths that are being caused by this war and occupation. I don't realistically think there is any way to provide armor to Iraqi civilians. If there was, I would support it, though. Did you know that Iraqi civilians are dying at a rate of 23 to 1 to American soldiers? How does that make you feel about keeping our troops there longer? Please think about that. Tue, 14 Dec 2004 19:05:46 GMT http://GWB-ONE-AND-ONLY.tribe.net/thread/5e5780c9-fdc2-4bcc-844d-c2c37d7ca3ea#872e7bc1-9e74-444c-b88e-23c5199a1f02 Mikita 2004-12-14T19:05:46Z http://GWB-ONE-AND-ONLY.tribe.net/thread/5e5780c9-fdc2-4bcc-844d-c2c37d7ca3ea#3779183a-6898-4bdd-931f-a29ccdbe6f7b I sure as heck can't tell you which people are innocent and which ones are insurgents. ++++ So why would you give them body armor then? THINK Tue, 14 Dec 2004 17:30:15 GMT http://GWB-ONE-AND-ONLY.tribe.net/thread/5e5780c9-fdc2-4bcc-844d-c2c37d7ca3ea#3779183a-6898-4bdd-931f-a29ccdbe6f7b My Body is a Temple 2004-12-14T17:30:15Z http://GWB-ONE-AND-ONLY.tribe.net/thread/5e5780c9-fdc2-4bcc-844d-c2c37d7ca3ea#e282cf06-c171-45cf-aa82-7b46c9498dd5 Exactly! Also the resentments run a lot deeper then just recent history, the west has been mucking about in the middle east, including creating many of the current national boundries that exist and the people are, poor, hungry, tired of it and this resentment can't be bombed away. Tue, 14 Dec 2004 05:05:40 GMT http://GWB-ONE-AND-ONLY.tribe.net/thread/5e5780c9-fdc2-4bcc-844d-c2c37d7ca3ea#e282cf06-c171-45cf-aa82-7b46c9498dd5 Mike 2004-12-14T05:05:40Z http://GWB-ONE-AND-ONLY.tribe.net/thread/5e5780c9-fdc2-4bcc-844d-c2c37d7ca3ea#2468a355-825e-44da-a179-6a92c08008ed Who thinks that this is good foreign policy? You mean aside from our current administration? The so-called "Christian" right-wing. Mon, 13 Dec 2004 21:35:14 GMT http://GWB-ONE-AND-ONLY.tribe.net/thread/5e5780c9-fdc2-4bcc-844d-c2c37d7ca3ea#2468a355-825e-44da-a179-6a92c08008ed Steve 2004-12-13T21:35:14Z http://GWB-ONE-AND-ONLY.tribe.net/thread/5e5780c9-fdc2-4bcc-844d-c2c37d7ca3ea#51a1782e-1a17-4812-a38c-cc55dacabcb9 Crab, No, I sure as heck can't tell you which people are innocent and which ones are insurgents. And this exactly why (among many other reasons) we shouldn't be in Iraq: History tells us that every time an invading occupying army has faced this situation (i.e., can't tell the civilians from the insurgants), it has suffered a quagmire and then either an outright military defeat or a forced withdrawal. This was true for the Russians in Afghanistan in the '80s, it was true for the French in Indochina in the '50s, it was true for the French in Algeria in the '50s and '60s, it was true for the US in Indochine in the '60s and '70s, and it is just as true now as it was then. If you can't tell the civilians from the insurgents, it means you have lost the support of the majority of the population, and the only way to win would be to stay there for another decade or so gradually exterminating the population to gain control of the country. Who thinks that this is good foreign policy? Mon, 13 Dec 2004 20:24:43 GMT http://GWB-ONE-AND-ONLY.tribe.net/thread/5e5780c9-fdc2-4bcc-844d-c2c37d7ca3ea#51a1782e-1a17-4812-a38c-cc55dacabcb9 Mikita 2004-12-13T20:24:43Z http://GWB-ONE-AND-ONLY.tribe.net/thread/5e5780c9-fdc2-4bcc-844d-c2c37d7ca3ea#2e94d208-db5b-4e83-bed0-5bea2d398966 Craig, You're right, as Americans we do have the right and the responsibility to speak to our government about our soldiers, and also about our military's actions in the world, and a lot of other issues. I think putting our efforts into lobbying Congress for more up-armored humvees is wrong, because it deepens the quagmire there, and because those up-armored humvees are being used to wage war in Iraq, and because we should be lobbying Congress to get "our troops" the hell out of there so more of them don't get killed. Mon, 13 Dec 2004 20:16:35 GMT http://GWB-ONE-AND-ONLY.tribe.net/thread/5e5780c9-fdc2-4bcc-844d-c2c37d7ca3ea#2e94d208-db5b-4e83-bed0-5bea2d398966 Mikita 2004-12-13T20:16:35Z http://GWB-ONE-AND-ONLY.tribe.net/thread/5e5780c9-fdc2-4bcc-844d-c2c37d7ca3ea#c3cfeebd-bb02-41d8-aacf-23b61c31b5d6 The innocent ones are dead. I would guess that at this point, our soldiers have to assume that the entire country is rising up, and hates their guts. Can you blame them? Mon, 13 Dec 2004 20:14:57 GMT http://GWB-ONE-AND-ONLY.tribe.net/thread/5e5780c9-fdc2-4bcc-844d-c2c37d7ca3ea#c3cfeebd-bb02-41d8-aacf-23b61c31b5d6 Steve 2004-12-13T20:14:57Z http://GWB-ONE-AND-ONLY.tribe.net/thread/5e5780c9-fdc2-4bcc-844d-c2c37d7ca3ea#62f832b2-b688-4446-80a7-d58e53b3005b Can you tell me which people are inoccent, and which ones are insurgents. I sure as heck can't. Mon, 13 Dec 2004 13:30:09 GMT http://GWB-ONE-AND-ONLY.tribe.net/thread/5e5780c9-fdc2-4bcc-844d-c2c37d7ca3ea#62f832b2-b688-4446-80a7-d58e53b3005b crab 2004-12-13T13:30:09Z http://GWB-ONE-AND-ONLY.tribe.net/thread/5e5780c9-fdc2-4bcc-844d-c2c37d7ca3ea#fea04d56-bd5a-405d-a192-ab09a458f140 M: see my response under my other posting. I don't think anyone here doesn't to protect Iraqi civilians. It's just that as Americans, we have a right to speak to Congress & our Govt. about our soldiers. K?! Mon, 13 Dec 2004 08:28:39 GMT http://GWB-ONE-AND-ONLY.tribe.net/thread/5e5780c9-fdc2-4bcc-844d-c2c37d7ca3ea#fea04d56-bd5a-405d-a192-ab09a458f140 $item.owner.firstName 2004-12-13T08:28:39Z http://GWB-ONE-AND-ONLY.tribe.net/thread/5e5780c9-fdc2-4bcc-844d-c2c37d7ca3ea#882262b9-392c-4dd7-8a23-073d7539dd93 Or the pigs from hauling us all off to jail for aiding the enemy? Mon, 13 Dec 2004 04:14:10 GMT http://GWB-ONE-AND-ONLY.tribe.net/thread/5e5780c9-fdc2-4bcc-844d-c2c37d7ca3ea#882262b9-392c-4dd7-8a23-073d7539dd93 Steve 2004-12-13T04:14:10Z http://GWB-ONE-AND-ONLY.tribe.net/thread/5e5780c9-fdc2-4bcc-844d-c2c37d7ca3ea#a328480d-40ef-43ff-9053-58baa87b93b1 What would prevent insurgents from stealing the armor and vehicles from the Iraqi civilians? Mon, 13 Dec 2004 03:56:45 GMT http://GWB-ONE-AND-ONLY.tribe.net/thread/5e5780c9-fdc2-4bcc-844d-c2c37d7ca3ea#a328480d-40ef-43ff-9053-58baa87b93b1 Tony 2004-12-13T03:56:45Z http://GWB-ONE-AND-ONLY.tribe.net/thread/5e5780c9-fdc2-4bcc-844d-c2c37d7ca3ea#5086f5d5-2769-46ff-b596-6c1999aa4220 I think, in light of the past day's discussions here, that the members of this tribe should resolve themselves to a campaign to provide body armor and up-armored humvees to the civilian population of Iraq. I say this because Iraqi civilians are dying faster than American soldiers, at a current rate of approximately 23 to 1. And after all, most of these Iraqi civilians didn't choose to be there, in the first place. If our true motivation to provide safety to those in harm's way, then the most logical thing to do is to start up-armoring Iraqi civilians and their vehicles, most of which are woefully lacking in both body armor and vehicle armor. This would help decrease casualties caused by attacks by American solders, attacks by insurgents, and random crossfire and other collateral damage. If your instinctual reaction to this is what I think it will be, that this proposition is absurd, then I invite you to reflect on whatever assumption you may have made about the universe and ethics that could cause you to want to (1) make American soldiers safe, (2) but think that doing the same thing for Iraqi civilians is nonsense. If enough people back me up on this, I'll start an online petition . . . or something. Mon, 13 Dec 2004 00:49:56 GMT http://GWB-ONE-AND-ONLY.tribe.net/thread/5e5780c9-fdc2-4bcc-844d-c2c37d7ca3ea#5086f5d5-2769-46ff-b596-6c1999aa4220 Mikita 2004-12-13T00:49:56Z